Quick linkspam of discussions elsenet

[kaberett]

• a discussion about the characterisation of Queter, how Breq feels about her, etc over on tumblr
  
• I wrote a critique of the German translator's approach to Ancillary Justice as described in the Interfictions article, and consequently came across some discussion of the Hungarian translation
  
• Ann Leckie refuses to comment on whether she is in fact the pen name for the Anaander Mianaai signed to Orbit.

Comments

[kaberett]

Possibly also of interest: I had a chat with a friend who wasn't very sold on the books, because (as a linguist) it's her experience that people from non-gendered-pronoun-having languages really don't care if they mess up gendered pronouns when speaking languages that do have them, so Breq caring so much isn't massively plausible. My read (which she found convincing) is that actually Radchaai in general don't care about pronouning people correctly; this is very much a Breq thing, partly because she has Opinions about Politeness but partly also because of the sense in which she is trying to distance herself from the Radch.

I would be interested in other folks' opinions on this reading!

[vass]

I think Breq, in addition to having Opinions About Politeness (and consideration) also has learned a thing or two about surviving in places and cultures where she's the only outsider and she's trying to blend in.

And (cf a discussion on Tumblr about the Hungarian translation) messing up the pronouns because your language doesn't have gendered pronouns is probably not as big a deal as misgendering people, whether out of malice or because your culture doesn't have the concepts of male and female, and my sense is that languages that don't have "he" and "she" but do distinguish between male and female probably work even harder to misgendering, it's just that pronoun fail isn't a mode of misgendering.

Like, I'm an English native speaker, so my native language has very few genders for things as opposed to animals and people. Some, sure (ships are feminine) but only vestigially. So if I'm talking French and then German and then French again, I might mess up whether the table is feminine or masculine this time.

And if I'm speaking to French or German native speakers, I'm likely to come across as ungrammatical or stupid or careless and lazy, and depending on their feelings about English native speakers and linguistic imperialism and how much of a jerk I'm being apart from that, they might take that badly. And honestly, I don't care. I mean, I care about trying to speak the language correctly and respectfully, but I do not really deep down care whether a table is masculine or feminine, that is not even a real thing. So that linguist is right, and the French or German native speakers who think I'm an imperialist jerk also have a point.

But it's not likely to be the same as if I call somebody's baby "she" and the mother says "yes, he's a very big strong boy," and then I don't instantly apologise and make the correction. That's fighting words. (And I have Certain Strong Opinions about that, but that is what the cultural situation is right now.)

Seivarden probably made a bit of an effort, the first non-Radchaai culture she got stuck in, at least after the first time she got beat up for misgendering people. But she's not good at languages, and it doesn't make sense, it's just not reasonable, her way is better. So in the next culture she washes up in, when she finds that this time it's 'der Tisch' not 'la table', only with people, she gives up.

But Breq is inhumanly quick at learning languages (from the number of songs she knows by heart, I'm assuming the ancillary process changes a lot about how one's memory works) and very wary and also spent 2000 years as a servant (among other things, but always that) so she probably didn't get beaten up the first time. At least for that.

[davidgillon]

If gender is important to the discussion, or the people involved, then misgendering becomes more important, and if you're regularly getting into those kinds of discussions, then you're probably going to learn more/care more. So to a degree it's self-correcting. OTOH Radchaai in general are enormously culturally obliterative. If you've gotten a Radchaai to speak anything other than Radchaai, then they've come an immense distance. But the overwhelming majority will only speak Radchaai, and Radchaai only does 'she'.

And thinking about this makes me wonder if the Radchaai actually use the AIs as translators and in most situations don't bother learning languages themselves, even where the circumstances would normally require it. In which case Breq paying more attention is only logical, they're the Radchaai version of a linguist.

[kaberett]

(so we know that the Translators' Office predated contact with the Presger because there's a frustrated and disparaging comment made about how important they've become; we also have the scenes on Shi'surna where Awn is in discussion with citizens where I... can't actually remember immediately if One Esk translates for her, but I'm watching the gravitational waves livestream so I'm not looking it up right now!)

[rmc28]

One Esk translates between Awn and Denz Ay, when Denz Ay is reporting finding the cache of guns.

(I looked it up)

[eccentric_hat]

That interpretation makes sense to me. When I have known people to use the wrong pronoun because of language difficulty, they are usually about as embarrassed about that as they would be about having any other language mistake pointed out to them--so it varies by person. But Breq is both trying to be polite, and trying to ingratiate herself with non-Radchaai people. Maybe "ingratiate" is too strong, but she does try to seem trustworthy and knowledgeable when interacting with other cultures, inasmuch as she is able. Plus, in her conversations with Strigan, which I think is where she is most annoyed to have gotten someone's gender wrong, Breq didn't especially want to be seen as Radchaai and that was a giveaway.

Regarding the German translation, I assumed that when the translator checked on someone's gender he was checking on someone non-Radchaai. There are a few people like that in the books who don't get gender pronouns because they aren't referred to in their own language in the third person, but if they were speaking of themselves and needed to inflect an adjective or something then it would reveal what grammatical gender they use for themselves. Which seems like a good time to consult the author--she doesn't get to dictate interpretation, but she does get to decide about the words that make up the text.

[davidgillon]

wrt Queter/Sphene, I think Breq is playing a long game.

In the short term it's likely to be an immense cultural clash. Queter will hate Sphene's ancillaries, and won't be quiet about it.

In the medium term, Sphene is going to see the stuff that's likeable about having Queter aboard. We know that the AIs are predisposed to have favourites, we know that Queter is driven by an urge to do right. Even if they clash, Sphene is incapable of not seeing what is likeable about Queter (not to mention, no competition).

And in the longer term, Queter will have neutered Sphene's focus on ancillaries simply by being there, being human, and being argumentative, while Sphene will have given Queter the seasoning they need to function in a high-profile role.

[hokuton_punch]

Thanks for the links to these discussions, they're fascinating!